The Energy Blog: PacWind VAWT
Hi,
I’m Brian Antonich the Small Wind Program Analyst for Windustry (www.windustry.org). I’ve seen many companies that are trying to market designs similar to these.
Here are the facts:
1. Vertical axis wind turbines have been around for longer than horizontal axis turbines. They are not new or innovative. They are generally a less efficient design and have difficult technical problems to overcome.
2. Horizontal axis turbines are the prominent design because they do not have some of the technical issues that Vertical axis machines to…namely fewer vibrations because as vertical axis machines spin, one blade will pass in front of another for a short period of time creating a difference in torque for a very short time during each rotation. Think of your car running out of alignment for 10-15 years and think of how much damage that will cause to your engine. This will also cause problems for a wind turbine.
I understand that this design probably has fewer vibrations, but at the expense of efficiency. This is a drag design turbine unlike many other vertical and horizontal axis machines that take advantage of Bernoulli’s Principle to cause lift on the blade due to a difference in pressure between the top (curved) side and the bottom (flat) side of the blade. The lift type machine is much more efficient.
3. Past commentators are correct in stating that if the machine isn’t going to be putting out 1 kW of energy until the wind speed reaches 40 mph in 99% of locations you wouldn’t be able to light a light bulb most days.
4. Small (home and farm sized) turbines are generally not dangerous to birds. Driving your car down the freeway is much more dangerous to birds and other wild life than putting a turbine up.
Commercial scale turbines (big enough to produce energy for hundreds of homes) pose only a minor threat to birds. Machines constructed in the 1980′s and 1990′s had three problems which made them dangerous to birds:
a. Lattice towers of the towers were great places for birds to nest. Bids would take flight to do what birds do and fly directly into the blades. With the incorporation of tubular towers into wind farm design the number of bird deaths has dropped significantly.
b. The blades spun very fast on early turbine designs. With new designs the blades of the machines spin at a very low rate compared to years past and the number of bird deaths has decreased immensely as well.
c. Poor siting of wind farms put them in areas of high migration rates or other sensitive areas. Altamont Pass in California and several wind farms on the Great Plains are examples of bad siting practices. At Altamont Pass thousands of birds migrate through that corridor each year through turbines with lattice towers and old technology. Not good for birds. There are several species of ground nesting birds on the great plains that are sensitive to tall structures. Tall structures equal tree where a owl or hawk might be perched ready to have lunch on babies. This makes mother birds very uncomfortable and want to go away. This is also not good.
Wind farms go through an extensive siting review process involving input from the public and experts on birds and other wildlife. This has caused impacts from wind farms on wildlife to decrease significantly.
I think that’s probably enough to spark some good discussion. Please feel free to contact me if any of you have questions about wind energy.
Just remember before investing in anything, look at all the alternatives before making a decision. This may be a good design…but there are other designs that are much better than this one.
Brian Antonich, M.S.
Small Wind Program Analyst
Windustry
2105 1st Ave S
Minneapolis, MN 55404
t. 612-870-3465
f. 612-813-5612
brian@windustry.org
www.windustry.org
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We
paid 11,000.00 to Pacwind about 2 years ago….finally got a call
after a letter from our lawyer saying WePower bought Pacwind out
and they were sorry for the delay and refunded 1000.00 as a gesture
of good will and promised they would have it to us in the
spring….well spring has come and gone and no generator. Calls are
NOT returned now. BBB and Atty. Generals office also do not respond
or record complaints.
What now?
Yeah. If it itakes 20 MPH
winds to power a single 100-watt light bulb, no one will be
interested. They need to go with a smaller generator and a
different gear ratio to swing that power curve to the lower
end.
PacWind, the company that
makes the Delta II and other models of VAWTs doesn't present any
performance curves on their site.
10 MPH is a rather high
cut-in speed, and if the unit doesn't reach its rated power until
25 MPH it's going to perform poorly at most sites.
I work for Wind-Sail, which
is a direct competitor to PacWind. Wind-Sail is also aiming at the
1kW and 3kW VAWT market.
For more info on VAWT's try
Well made site, good photos and excellent explanations for
construction.
LRB
Blogs are so
interactive where we get lots of informative on any topics nice job
keep it up !!
I don't know about any of
that drag and lift stuff, i just want something to cut down my
energy bill. If designers would stop fighting for the almighty
dollar, this problem would allready be solved.
Hi
Mary at PacWind:
5-6 mph ? When you insult your audiance your editorial only
communicates your deciet
c. Poor siting of wind farms
put them in areas of high migration rates or other sensitive areas.
Altamont Pass in California and several wind farms on the Great
Plains are examples of bad siting practices. At Altamont Pass
thousands of birds migrate through that corridor each year through
turbines with lattice towers and old technology. Not good for
birds. There are several species of ground nesting birds on the
great plains that are sensitive to tall structures. Tall structures
equal tree where a owl or hawk might be perched ready to have lunch
on babies. This makes mother birds very uncomfortable and want to
go away. This is also not good.
In the mean time, Ill throw
another log on the fire, and watch football on my big screen while
the power company keeps shoving in the coal!
This lift-and-drag design
has fundamental efficiency flaws and is not likely to exceed 25%
efficiency. In fact, that these guys show their own chart with a 40
MPH plus windspeed to achieve their 1 kW power does not bode well.
Most of us live, and would utilize a 1 kW design in class 2 and
class 3 winds (5-15 MPH on average), which means this turbine would
be of little use.
I have looked at wind for
several years and get excited when i see a potential solution. But
each time it seems to come back to the same issue, not enough wind
to actually generate something that would make since and or the
need to build a giant thing in your yard, which you wont do. If
someone knows of a real solution love to hear about it. otherwise i
assume we will only get wind energy from wind
farms.
I was able to get into the
pdf chart mentioned above. anna
Stop paying oil dollars to those who worship daily at the alter of
our destruction.
Check this out
- a very good blog that deals with many of the issues discussed
here.
The Delta 2 model that Jay
Leno installed ran about $19K and they say it produces 10kw in
~24mph winds. That seems pretty darn cost effective to
me?
I'm Brian Antonich the Small
Wind Program Analyst for Windustry ( ). I've seen
many companies that are trying to market designs similar to
these.
4. Small (home and farm
sized) turbines are generally not dangerous to birds. Driving your
car down the freeway is much more dangerous to birds and other wild
life than putting a turbine up.
I saw a vertical wind
turbine design that had hoop like blades years ago so the
multi-directional and low maintenance facet have been explored and
also show promise. I especially like the fact that the generator is
at the base. However, I agree with the above commenters, any
scalable design must produce significant efficiency at lower (+- 10
mph) wind speeds. Otherwise than that it is a great
concept.
3. Past commentators are
correct in stating that if the machine isn't going to be putting
out 1 kW of energy until the wind speed reaches 40 mph in 99% of
locations you wouldn't be able to light a light bulb most
days.
Best wishes and good luck
to Phil's family. It takes a lot of hard work and sacrifice to make
new energy ideas mainstream.
Fantastic post
and wonderful blog, I really like this type of interesting articles
keep it up.
Most horizontal turbines are
at least 80 feet high. Does this height issue make the turbine less
effective or is it the design? If you read the performance charts
of the pac-wind, what everyone is saying is true. Does anyone know
what the wind speed needs to be for a Bergy to be efficient? Thanks
for your help in explaining this vertical turbine.
i just looked up quiet
revolution's vawt: it costs about $50,000! pacwind's models start
at less than $3,000. any hawts i've priced out begin at more than
$20,000. so how do we compare the partial usefulness of pacwind
versus something that may or may not work due to turbulence at a
rural or suburban homestead, that costs way too much to install in
any case?! please respond, people who can really explain if pacwind
is useful or not. thanks, a rural greenie in upstate new
york.
The founder of Pacwind has
passed away. Phil, my brother has been ill for months fighting
cancer. Pacwind being ran by family and extended family have
focused on Phil's health and wellness as well as investing blood,
sweat & tears into getting as close to perfecting it's product
(Phil's) Legacy, as possible.
On behalf of my brother, I am sorry for any unanswered questions.
Things will come back to life when the healing begins.
1. Vertical axis wind
turbines have been around for longer than horizontal axis turbines.
They are not new or innovative. They are generally a less efficient
design and have difficult technical problems to
overcome.
2. Horizontal axis turbines
are the prominent design because they do not have some of the
technical issues that Vertical axis machines to…namely fewer
vibrations because as vertical axis machines spin, one blade will
pass in front of another for a short period of time creating a
difference in torque for a very short time during each rotation.
Think of your car running out of alignment for 10-15 years and
think of how much damage that will cause to your engine. This will
also cause problems for a wind turbine.
Commercial scale turbines
(big enough to produce energy for hundreds of homes) pose only a
minor threat to birds. Machines constructed in the 1980's and
1990's had three problems which made them dangerous to
birds:
dead is right Ive tried to
get a reply from pakwind and they dont return anything
Brian Antonich, M.S.
Small Wind Program Analyst
Windustry
2105 1st Ave S
Minneapolis, MN 55404
t. 612-870-3465
f. 612-813-5612
Has anyone seen the VAWT by
realracecom on youtube? It claims 2,500 watts and seems to work
well. Who are they and is it real? Comments?
Hello,
Pls. send information regarding this product.
Cost, Technical Info.Shipping to Puerto Rico
and Dealership for this market.
Thank you,
Jorge Foglia
Empresas Foglia, Inc.
Just remember before
investing in anything, look at all the alternatives before making a
decision. This may be a good design…but there are other designs
that are much better than this one.
I
am having a problem finding a vawg that works with an inverter that
is not three phase. I called a couple of companies and was told
they are sold as a package. Any help?
b. The blades spun very fast
on early turbine designs. With new designs the blades of the
machines spin at a very low rate compared to years past and the
number of bird deaths has decreased immensely as well.
I understand that this
design probably has fewer vibrations, but at the expense of
efficiency. This is a drag design turbine unlike many other
vertical and horizontal axis machines that take advantage of
Bernoulli’s Principle to cause lift on the blade due to a
difference in pressure between the top (curved) side and the bottom
(flat) side of the blade. The lift type machine is much more
efficient.
I
. And we recommend this to every
find this information very useful. Great work! We study this
article on the regular basis
body.
Why don't you write Jay
Leno and Ed Bagley Jr about PACWIND. They are advertising PACWIND
products. Let them know that the people they are recommending are
ripping others off. Let them show that on “Living with
Ed”
If you want power in low
wind you have to go for a large HAWT like a Bergey or a Westwind.
The problem here is that unless you have a perfect wind site a
large HAWT's performance will be seriously degraded by
turbulence.
If wind power is not
available to me from a product that will save me money, Ill just
keep supporting my local coal burning power company.
they both most
likely got a break for installing and using them on their
shows
It seems to me the
renewable energy industry is like the early auto industry. If it
weren't for Henry Ford taking a simple, effective machine and mass
producing it to bring the price down, then no one in the early 20th
century would have been able to afford a car. Today, you can buy a
new car or truck that has thousands of complex moving parts for
less than the cost of wind turbine that has 3 or 4 non-complex
moving parts, doesn't there seem to be a disconnect
somewhere?
Where is the Henry Ford of the renewable energy industry?
I wish I was independantly wealthy, I would buy a well established
wind turbine company like Bergey, Jacobs, or Eoltec and then crank
out wind turbines to make them as common place and affordable as
the modern auto.
It is too bad that wind
power can not solve our most pressing issue – dependence on foreign
oil. Unless we can make a massive shift into electric cars.
The point with this turbine
is that it would not be the primary power generator. For me it is
the ideal secondary generator for a primary solar PV setup. Its
performance in high winds and turbulent areas that characterise
installations in suburbia make it perfect for my
purposes.
When will somebody design a
product that is simple, low cost, and will save the
planet??
why did they remove my
comments ? this outfit must be on the up & up they wont return
my e mails or my phone calls.So id be careful about giving them any
money
I think that's probably
enough to spark some good discussion. Please feel free to contact
me if any of you have questions about wind energy.
I know someone who's working
on a small HAWT with a many-bladed rotor, like a classic water
pumper; the high solidity would also make it visible to
birds. I noted that this rotor would have high drag and thus
low efficiency, but it's probably better than this VAWT.
Hi. Does anyone have a
problem with the height of this turbine? In the literature, the
company mentions a 30 foot pole or higher depending on the site. In
addition, you can put it on your roof. Any issues with vibrations
filtering down to your living area?
Beware PacWind. I paid them
in full, over $8,000, for a turbine system nearly a year ago. They
have lied to me at least 10 times about a due date and now will not
even return my phone calls. I filed complaints with the California
BBB and Attorney General's office and to date they have not
responded to the agency inquiries. It looks like these scam artist
have cheated me out of over $8,000. Do not let this happen to you.
Don't say you haven't been warned.
I was wondering if anyone
here had looked at the vawt produced by Quiet Revolution? It
appears to the untrained eye to be of great value.
I
have been reviewing a lot on the internet regrding the different
design and the VAxis design interest me a lot. I can do quiet a lot
on my known. I have seen a power plant and a portable unit by FTC
WINDTURBINE :do they have the same problem?
Hello; Like all forms of
energy production and schemes, they go through evolutionary
changes. Both HAWT & VAWT deserve far more experimentation,
research and effort to bring out the optimum in practical designs.
Quiet Revolution is doing this with their approach to the problem.
Don't be afraid to experiment and try different approaches. This is
how Technology advances. Zeyphr, Ph.D, physicist.
a. Lattice towers of the
towers were great places for birds to nest. Bids would take flight
to do what birds do and fly directly into the blades. With the
incorporation of tubular towers into wind farm design the number of
bird deaths has dropped significantly.
I have to agree with EP on
this one. What TMA achieve with adding aerofoils to their HAWT was
to shift the curve to the left and still retain the same HAWT
advantages.
Wind farms go through an
extensive siting review process involving input from the public and
experts on birds and other wildlife. This has caused impacts from
wind farms on wildlife to decrease significantly.
I am new to this and trying
to understand what would be the best way to get started. I somewhat
agree with Mr. Lucas about just wanting to learn a way to provide
solar, wind or some form of energy at a resonable cost so I could
remove my dependence on the power companies and at the same time
figure out what might work for my community. I have a good roof for
a solar collector (earth contact) and about 2 acres of land. Is
this conducive to cost effective wind energy for an area like
Missouri?
So
it seems that PacWind is not a reputable company. Are there any
others out there marketing a unit for a home that generates 5-10kW
that is affordable?
I just want a simple, low
cost, product for my home. Not something that will take 35 years to
pay for itself.
This is all so typical of
the “Go Green” people in this country. Everybody fights and tells
everybody else how the other persons products don't
work.